Wednesday, September 26, 2007



Apologies for the audio on this one, we were seriously let down in terms of bandwidth from Skype on the night of the recording. It's cleaned up as much as we could and we feel it is quite listenable.

In orthodox academic circles, Atlantis is the ‘A’ word. If that terrifying word is uttered, academic ears fill instantly with academic wax and the offending utterer is summarily laughed and/or escorted out of the room.

Nevertheless, Atlantis hunters are legion, and Atlantis believers exponentially legioner.

In PhoenixFire 7 I take a long look at the entire complicated phenomenon. I present an overview of Atlantological history; it’s modern beginnings with Ignatius Donnelly’s ATLANTIS: The Antediluvian World, a vast volume of scholarship first printed in 1888, an instant best-seller, and in print ever since. I then look mainly at the astonishing number of claimants to Atlantis. These, among others, range from the Atlantic Ocean of course, to both the poles, Cypress, Spain, the Altiplano of Peru/Bolivia (believe it or not), and the Caribbean Sea. .

I look closely at Plato’s story, detailed in his Dialogues. For this is the tale that sent Donnelly on his initial search and a scholarly cottage industry was born. With immense advances in all sorts of underwater exploring techniques and excavating equipment besides, it shows no signs of abating.

However, despite the widespread locations trumpeted by adherents as THE Atlantis, all geographical candidates share one premise in common: a strictly literal acceptance of the complex and extraordinarily detailed physical description Plato provides for the huge, rich, aggressive and ultimately decadent civilization that sank to the bottom of the ocean in a single catastrophic day.

At the same time all Atlantologists practice one scholarly dodge in common: when the favored site diverges in some major way (size of site, place of site, age of site, etc) from Plato’s account –and without exception, all do- those divergences are fudged away and/or ignored. Nothing found and loudly proclaimed so far really matches Plato’s tale with anything resembling precision. In other words none of the candidates auditioning for the role actually qualify for it.

So is Plato’s account merely a fabrication? And if so, to what end? Why should he go to all that trouble? Just to confound researchers who will not show up for another two thousand years? It doesn’t make sense. And, along the same lines, are all those avid Atlantologists therefore deluding themselves, and their audiences while they’re at it; not so much barking up the wrong tree, as paddling aimlessly around the wrong ocean?

Definitive answer: yes and no, but it’s complicated. What isn’t?

There is an extraordinary, little-known and erudite book written and published some thirty years ago that, if heeded, without exactly nullifying the Atlantological premise could change the direction of inquiry in radical but fruitful ways.

Musicologist Ernest G. McClain's THE PYTHAGOREAN PLATO decodes the 'A' word as an elaborate musical allegory.



Unknown said...

Hi John:
See you at CPAK next week. I am listening to your series now. Good stuff!
Dr. Carmen Boulter

Anonymous said...

at last - thank you!

Anonymous said...

"There is a book called "The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: How a Stone-Age Comet Changed the Course of World Culture" (by Richard Firestone, Allen West, and Simon Warwick-Smith) that talks about a strike by multiple fragments of a comet around 13,000 years ago, causing widespread death and destruction. This may be a little too early to account for the fall of Atlantis, but that could have happened when other fragments of the comet came by a few thousand years later. The strike at 13,000 years ago could account for many of the numerous flood legends, though.

One of the reviews by readers was very interesting (and also very long). The review has the following title:

Have we passed our "Extinct By" Date?, April 17, 2007
By Laura Knight-Jadczyk (France)

Part of the review is quoted below (the review, in embedded quotes and otherwise, usually refers to the date as being 12,000 years ago):


... Back in the 1940s Dr. Frank C. Hibben, Prof. of Archeology at the University of New Mexico led an expedition to Alaska to look for human remains. He didn't find human remains; he found miles and miles of icy muck just packed with mammoths, mastodons, and several kinds of bison, horses, wolves, bears and lions. Just north of Fairbanks, Alaska, the members of the expedition watched in horror as bulldozers pushed the half-melted muck into sluice boxes for the extraction of gold. Animal tusks and bones rolled up in front of the blades "like shavings before a giant plane". The carcasses were found in all attitudes of death, most of them "pulled apart by some unexplainable prehistoric catastrophic disturbance."[Hibben, Frank, The Lost Americans (New York: Thomas & Crowell Co. 1946)]

The killing fields stretched for literally hundreds of miles in every direction.[ibid.] There were trees and animals, layers of peat and moss, twisted and tangled and mangled together as though some Cosmic mixmaster sucked them all in circa 12000 years ago, and then froze them instantly into a solid mass. [Sanderson, Ivan T., "Riddle of the Frozen Giants", Saturday Evening Post, No. 39, January 16, 1960.]

Just north of Siberia entire islands are formed of the bones of Pleistocene animals swept northward from the continent into the freezing Arctic Ocean. One estimate suggests that some ten million animals may be buried along the rivers of northern Siberia. Thousands upon thousands of tusks created a massive ivory trade for the master carvers of China, all from the frozen mammoths and mastodons of Siberia. The famous Beresovka mammoth first drew attention to the preserving properties of being quick-frozen when buttercups were found in its mouth.

What kind of terrible event overtook these millions of creatures in a single day? Well, the evidence suggests an enormous tsunami raging across the land, tumbling animals and vegetation together, to be finally quick-frozen for the next 12000 years. But the extinction was not limited to the Arctic, even if the freezing at colder locations preserved the evidence of Nature's rage.

Paleontologist George G. Simpson considers the extinction of the Pleistocene horse in North America to be one of the most mysterious episodes in zoological history, confessing, "no one knows the answer." He is also honest enough to admit that there is the larger problem of the extinction of many other species in America at the same time. [Simpson, George G., Horses, New York: Oxford University Press) 1961] The horse, giant tortoises living in the Caribbean, the giant sloth, the saber-toothed tiger, the glyptodont and toxodon. These were all tropical animals. These creatures didn't die because of the "gradual onset" of an ice age, "unless one is willing to postulate freezing temperatures across the equator, such an explanation clearly begs the question." [Martin, P. S. & Guilday, J. E., "Bestiary for Pleistocene Biologists", Pleistocene Extinction, Yale University, 1967]

Massive piles of mastodon and saber-toothed tiger bones were discovered in Florida. [Valentine, quoted by Berlitz, Charles, The Mystery of Atlantis (New York, 1969)] Mastodons, toxodons, giant sloths and other animals were found in Venezuela quick-frozen in mountain glaciers. Woolly rhinoceros, giant armadillos, giant beavers, giant jaguars, ground sloths, antelopes and scores of other entire species were all totally wiped out at the same time, at the end of the Pleistocene, approximately 12000 years ago.

This event was global. The mammoths of Siberia became extinct at the same time as the giant rhinoceros of Europe; the mastodons of Alaska, the bison of Siberia, the Asian elephants and the American camels. It is obvious that the cause of these extinctions must be common to both hemispheres, and that it was not gradual. A "uniformitarian glaciation" would not have caused extinctions because the various animals would have simply migrated to better pasture. What is seen is a surprising event of uncontrolled violence. [Leonard, R. Cedric, Appendix A in "A Geological Study of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge", Special Paper No. 1 ( Bethany: Cowen Publishing 1979)] In other words, 12000 years ago, something terrible happened - so terrible that life on earth was nearly wiped out in a single day.

Harold P. Lippman admits that the magnitude of fossils and tusks encased in the Siberian permafrost present an "insuperable difficulty" to the theory of uniformitarianism, since no gradual process can result in the preservation of tens of thousands of tusks and whole individuals, "even if they died in winter." [Lippman, Harold E., "Frozen Mammoths", Physical Geology, (New York 1969)] Especially when many of these individuals have undigested grasses and leaves in their belly. Pleistocene geologist William R. Farrand of the Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory, who is opposed to catastrophism in any form, states: "Sudden death is indicated by the robust condition of the animals and their full stomachs ... the animals were robust and healthy when they died." [Farrand, William R., "Frozen Mammoths and Modern Geology", Science, Vol.133, No. 3455, March 17, 1961] Unfortunately, in spite of this admission, this poor guy seems to have been incapable of facing the reality of worldwide catastrophe represented by the millions of bones deposited all over this planet right at the end of the Pleistocene. Hibben sums up the situation in a single statement: "The Pleistocene period ended in death. This was no ordinary extinction of a vague geological period, which fizzled to an uncertain end. This death was catastrophic and all inclusive." [Hibben, op. cit.]

This is the event that Firestone, West and Warwick-Smith discuss in their book, The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: Flood, Fire, and Famine in the History of Civilization. They suggest that, as a result of the above mentioned supernova, Planet Earth encountered a massive "swarm" of cometary bodies that nearly destroyed every living thing on Earth about 12000 years ago. They write:

"Until recently, the astronomical mainstream was highly critical of Clube and Napier's giant comet hypothesis. However, the crash of comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 on Jupiter in 1994 has led to a change in attitudes. The comet, watched by the world's observatories, was seen split into 20 pieces and slam into different parts of the planet over a period of several days. A similar impact on Earth, it hardly needs saying, would have been devastating." ..."


Thanks Anon,

Some of that material was familiar to me but much was not. Very useful.


Anonymous said...

By the way, this did not load in iTunes. I just downloaded it manually.

Great Show! Keep it up.

jsm said...

Hi John...
I luved your files sooo much i decided to use my brilliant audio skills to tidy up the dodgey no7 file.
make sure you get the recordings right next time or else!!! :) your works far to important m8

use the below link in full to hear the file...

(( if admin want the file to host they can either create a dummy account and download from esnips, or email me on where to send it. my advice admin, GET THE FILE - it is an improvement - also have 320kbps version if you want @50mb for future ref John. email me at ))

Keep it up John. Nothing less than a pleasure...

till next time

Anonymous said...

Here's another interesting discussion on the subject of Ireland as a destination for Atlantean migration:

"Irish Origins Part 4 - The Druids, Culdeans, Gaels & The Creation of Christianity
November 25, 2007

Michael Tsarion joins us to round up our series on his new book: The Irish Origins of Civilization. Topics Discussed: Culdeans, Colonization by the sword and the word, the two wings of power, the five waves of visitation to Ireland, Atlantis, Tuatha Dé Danann, the giants of old, hybrid beings, Iberia, Tribe of the Goddess Danu, The Menzies, Malesinas, Atonists, Sudan & the Holy Mountain, Hyksos, Athens, Aton, Akhenaton: thrown out of Egypt, Scythians in Egypt and the connection to the Druids, British Israelites, Iona, Christianity, Symbol of the Lion, Anti-Christian Caesars, St Paul, Rufus Putins, Claudia, Scota, Sinclairs (St Clair), The Mensies, Templars and the catholic church, and much more. Don't miss the excellent continuation with Michael on the Templars, Gold, banking, mining and resources, Origins of monotheism, Sun worship and Jesus (Hesus/Iesus/Isa) the Man."

Anonymous said...

A must listen!

In this interview, Mr. Glenn Kimball talks about, amongst may things, the fabled Aesop, where his wisdom came from, his relationship to Egypt, the Americas, an the U.S.

He has a website at:


Listen to the blog radio podcast at:


"Glenn Kimball rejoins the show to talk about the lost story behind Aesop and his miraculous life. We all know of his fables but did you know he played an enormous role in the lives of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. He was also responsible for much of what was included in the mysterious Library of Alexandria."

Anonymous said...

Conscious Media Network has posted a 1/2 hour video interview of John Anthony West at the 2007 CPAK Conference:

"Alternative EgyptJohn Anthony West
(Running time = 31 mins)

In another interview with author, lecturer and guide, John Anthony West who we caught up with at the 2007 CPAK Conference, John continues to discuss the rationale behind the notion that an even earlier civilization created the Sphinx."


Anonymous said...

Maltese claims extraordinary discovery in Sahara desert
Explorers just returning from the Sahara desert have claimed they found a remarkable relic from Pharaonic times.

Mark Borda and Mahmoud Marai, from Malta and Egypt respectively, were surveying a field of boulders on the flanks of a hill deep in the Libyan desert some 700 kilometres west of the Nile Valley when engravings on a large rock consisting of hieroglyphic writing, Pharaonic cartouche, an image of the king and other Pharaonic iconography came into view.

Mr Borda would not reveal the precise location in order to protect the site.

He explained the far-reaching implications of the find for Egyptology. “Although very active in the Eastern Desert, as attested to by the innumerable inscriptions they left behind, there is very little evidence for the presence of the ancient Egyptians in the much larger and harsher Western Desert.

“The consensus among Egyptologists is that the Egyptians did not penetrate this desert any further than the area around Djedefre’s Water Mountain.

read here:

Anonymous said...

Atlantis was a civlization of offspring of Lucifer and the other sinning gods by getting regular women pregnant Genesis 6.

These giants lived almost to 1,000 years they were higly advanced with things that is impossible for homo sapien man to have had around that time.

Lucifer and the other fallen gods gave thiere children this adavanced technology and taught them how to build and things.

I also heard before Lucifer and the other fallen gods were cast out of heaven , before the war of heave Stichen speaks of Atlantis was a place where the creator angels dwelled when the creator Yahweh order them to create man.

Adam was placed in the nile when you read Genesis 2 . it says 8 it said that the creator placed Adam in the along the garden of Eden... He placed him there when you suggest that Adam really was created at Atlantis and then gods came and placed him in the Nile by Spaceships it makes sense.

In Micheal Tsarion Atlantis Visitation and Genetic Manipulation he proves my point on how Evil was geneticly put into our bloodline by Lucifer and the other fallen gods having babies with regular women.

Anonymous said...

A savoir que ce peuple était habité sur toute la terre et non pas sur un seul lieu comme l'indique les historiens.
La terre fut habité par de milliard de personnes

Seul une parti de cet découverte pourra voir le jour et montré pour preuve que ce peuple a bien existé, c'est une île qui a pu être sauvé, les seuls traces de cette civilisation sera sur cette île.

Un peuple paisible avec une modernité comparé comme celle de aujourd'hui.
Oui je dit bien moderne, nous a coté nous sommes de la préhistoire.

Le pourquoi nous n'avons pas beaucoup de trace où peut ceci est simple.
Il suffi de voir ce que peut faire un tremblement de terre avec un ras de marrée.
C'est ce qui c'est passé pour eu à la suite d'un phénomène étrange qu'a subi la terre.

On vois déjà ce que sa fait aujourd'hui un tremblement de terre et un ras de marré en plus il ne reste plus grand chose, tout est éparpillé sur la terre.

Tout cela est arrivé et malgré tous leurs savoir et hommes de science, les atlantes ne s'attendaient pas a ce que sa arrive.

Etrange non ??
Pourtant c'est ce qui c'est passé.

Seul une île a pu être sauvegardé avec quelque survivant. Comment ??
Et bien avec la technique de l'élévation, une technique très compliqué pour nous mais maîtrisé par certaine personne du peuple des atlantes.

Avec l'aide du tremblement de terre cela a permis de rompre les sous sol rocheuses et de décrocher la terre et de formé une île qui sera suspendu au dessus du ras de marré.

Puis le danger est passé et l'île a repris sa place. Mais les dégâts étaient présents pour toute l'humanité.

Ernie C. said...

"In orthodox academic circles, Atlantis is the ‘A’ word. If that terrifying word is uttered, academic ears fill instantly with academic wax and the offending utterer is summarily laughed and/or escorted out of the room."

In other words, Atlantis has simply just become another Thought-terminating cliché :(

What a shame.

Jame Graemon said...

This is what it's all about...getting the theories into the hands of those who can do something about it: I think you said that the pyramids were built to store knowledge. Well if the Red Pyramid was built over that very old building, would it not be fair to say that it was built over that to protect it from destruction...or to draw attention to it by future generations? Were they not just saying, "Hey, check this out...this was here before we got here, so you know that there has been a civilization before us."?

Anonymous said...

Doesn't the mere fact that Plato talked about a Golden Age, a Silver Age, a Bronze Age and an Iron (or Dark) Age, already prove to satisfaction of academicians that there was definitely interaction between the cultures of ancient Greece and India?

It seems so obvious!

Anonymous said...

Hi John - Really loved Magical Egypt - especially the newgrange type mound under Giza - Take a look at my blog to see the huge scarab beetle Ireland, at Tara Hill, very interesting.....

Damien said...

Hi John, I would like to commend you on your diligent research into ancient Egypt. I saw the information pertaining Magical Egypt. I would like to say that the power of the ancient Egyptians magical abilities have been greatly under estimated and understood. I say this because I have had a personal experience with this magic 15 years ago. I have documented everything pertaining to this power and put on YouTube under Pharaohstreasure parts 1 through 8. I was not obsessed with ancient Egypt at all when this all came to my attention. I am a living testimonial to the forgotten forces of real ancient Egyptian magic.This experience has been time tested. The information about the civilization going back over 13,000 years is right on point. One thing I quickly found out which was contrary to popular opinion Osiris does exist. This is the real deal

Damien said...

Hi John, I would like to commend you on your diligent research into ancient Egypt. I saw the information on the Magical Egypt. I would like to say that the power of the ancient Egyptians magic has been greatly under estimated. I say this because I have had a personal experience with this magic 15 years ago. I have documented everything pertaining to this power and put on YouTube under Pharaohstreasure parts 1 through 8. This is the real deal. I was not obsessed with ancient Egypt at all when this all came to my attention. It is a living testimonial to the forgotten forces on real magic

Damien said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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